Performance Review Tips That Really Work

Nancy Ozawa (00:06): Well, hello, and welcome to this episode of Banking Out Loud. I'm your host today, Nancy Ozawa. (00:12): And it's that time of the year when managers and teams are beginning to think about those upcoming performance reviews. Maybe it's middle of year, maybe it's the end of the year, maybe it's every single month... In some cases. We start to think about promotions, we start to think about maybe a few that maybe need a little bit more constructive feedback or unfortunately maybe need to be placed on performance improvement. But either way, we need to have that performance review, and it's very important to have. (00:38): And no matter where you fall on that spectrum, you need a strategy. whether you're a high performer, whether you're at the first time you're doing a review or it's their 30th time you're doing a review, you really need to have a strategy and you need to prepare. (00:52): So today, we're going to discuss the latest that's going on with tips, and trends and anything we can think of for preparing for these performance reviews, whether you're an employee being reviewed or a manager doing the review. I've invited Laurie Battaglia, the CEO of Aligned at Work, a leadership development consulting firm that specializes in bringing great leadership together with diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. (01:21): Laurie has over 35 years, and most of it's in banking and investment, so she's very critical for our audience. She has helped solve lots of people problems. So welcome, Laurie. Laurie Battaglia (01:30): Thank you. It's an honor to be here today. Nancy Ozawa (01:34): You truly understand that people are the heart and the soul of this business, especially here in banking. Laurie Battaglia (01:38): Ooh, they really are. And I think sometimes we miss that, we get focused on the profit-end of the business and we forget to balance it out with the people-end of the business. Nancy Ozawa (01:46): Right. Laurie Battaglia (01:47): Definitely. Nancy Ozawa (01:48): If we don't have those people working in the right away and enthusiastic, then that translates right over to our customers. Laurie Battaglia (01:52): It surely does. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Nancy Ozawa (01:56): ... before we jump into performance reviews, why don't you share just a little bit more about your background? Laurie Battaglia (02:02): Yes. So, my background is 37 years in banking and finance. I started in the savings and loan industry way back when, the thrift industry, and spent about 20 years there in smaller savings loans. One of them... got taken over by the federal government, and that was my moment of maybe someday I want to have my own business. Because I saw that organizations were either all focused on profit or all focused on people, but they weren't balancing it very well. (02:30): And some of the work that I actually had to do back then... To get folks ready for when we were sold and they had to re-interview for positions, some of the work that I figured out how to do back then in the mid... Or early '90s, that was, still lives on in my work today. When people come in for career coaching, I usually am dealing with executives and leaders, and they don't know how to really brand themselves and package themselves up to get out there in the market. And of course networking's important, and all of those kinds of things. (03:02): So there's an end of my business where I do some of that work one-on-one with leaders and executives. Mostly what we do is we realize that to get people really, truly engaged you've got to have that great leadership, and it all comes down to the culture of the organization. And we help people shift and build positive cultures of belonging, so that people actually want to work there. (03:29): And it looks very different these days. Th- the one thing I talk a lot about is how leaders need to shift their perspective and the way they approach leadership, because the peoples' expectations have changed so much that we just can't lead the way we used to. I'm a baby boomer, and I think that we've put our rules down on Gen X pretty well, so that... Gen X leaders and baby boomer leaders have a way of looking at things and how things were very predictable in some cases, and the way we lead, the way we manage. (04:02): And so, it's just not that way anymore. And I do think that goes over into performance evaluations. People have different expectations when they sit down at the desk or the, or the Zoom desk with someone and do their performance evaluation. Nancy Ozawa (04:18): Absolutely. I don't think we're working for, uh, one company for 40 or 50 years. It's, we've got a lot more options. People move. (04:24): So, you're right. You hit a very key point, that you want to be a leader that instills that it's fun, and you enjoy, and you're engaged in your organization. And, and it's critical- (04:35): ... during that performance review. That is one of the times these honest conversations can happen. Laurie Battaglia (04:39): Yes. And they can make or break the relationship. (04:43): You know, the, people are under high guard, I guess I would say. When you sit down to hear the feedback, you're hoping that it's pretty positive and wondering that maybe it isn't gonna be positive. And the fewer conversations you have during the year, the more, of a surprise it is. And we always say there shouldn't be any surprises, but you still hear it. Or it's the way somebody phrases something that sticks with that employee, and there's so, so much pressure on leaders to say it right, say it well... Um, and form the relationship that moves us forward together, rather than making somebody feel like well, I have no hope here and I'm gonna have to leave. Nancy Ozawa (05:23): Exactly. Exactly. And you've, you know, been in this banking, uh, industry for a while, so you've Peaked behind the curtain, I think is the term- Laurie Battaglia (05:31): Oh, definitely. Nancy Ozawa (05:32): ... to have used, and seen these. Let's kind of start at the, the beginning, 'cause you kind of teed up, um, you know that performance reviews aren't the same as they were before. Laurie Battaglia (05:41): Right. Nancy Ozawa (05:42): What is the current state? Some organizations I've worked with, they only do it once a year. Some do it every month, and then it's a bigger one half-year, and then the annual. What is that state of what today's reviews look like? Laurie Battaglia (05:54): You know, I think they're all over the place, because we have a lot more options, and everybody hasn't kind of signed up for just this one way to do it. (06:04): So you'll find organizations that, like you said, do it once a year... And they're not really having conversations along the way during the year unless somebody, shall we say, gets in trouble. If they're not doing something right and it's bad enough that they feel like they have to talk about it during the year, then it might get talked about. Or someone might get a just keep doing what you're doing, which, I- I'm gonna go all boomer here. So in my day, just keep doing what you're doing was a real positive pat on the back. It was like you're, you've got it right, just keep on going. That's another changing expectation, that we'll get more specific with our feedback. (06:40): But I'm finding that some organizations... A little while back, I want to say that was probably... Boy, COVID has made time so weird for us. (06:51): Probably 8 to 10 years ago... Yeah, probably about 10 years ago, there was a movement afoot to get rid of performance evaluations and have quarterly reviews, with people. Quarterly performance conversations, and where are you going, where are you heading? And the idea was to take the surprise away, to make it a normal thing to talk about it, rather than oh, good heavens... Here we go, it's either mid-year or end-of-year. (07:19): And there still are those mid-year, end-of-year formal conversations that many people have, but everybody's kind of all over the place. Uh, there's not really one right way to do it. as with anything, there's several wrong ways to do it, but there's not one right way these days or one way that organizations have signed up for. Nancy Ozawa (07:40): A- and maybe it differs by the culture of the organization or the type of workers that you're, um, interacting with. Maybe some need it more than others. Laurie Battaglia (07:50): Definitely. Nancy Ozawa (07:51): So if I'm one of those folks and I'm about to know I have a meeting with my boss and sit down,- (07:59): ... I think in the past we used to think that you walked in and the boss would tell you everything,- Laurie Battaglia (08:01): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (08:02): ... and nowadays, you know, I think the worker needs to be part of this two-way conversation- (08:09): ... and you know, be able to say what they want to share about themselves... And, um, also get, and ask questions to get what they want. But I'm, I'm- Laurie Battaglia (08:18): Absolutely. Nancy Ozawa (08:19): ... sure you've peaked behind the curtain a lot more- Laurie Battaglia (08:20): (laughs) Nancy Ozawa (08:21): ... than I have. Um, so I really wanted to see what you would recommend if I'm that worker getting ready for my either mid-year, my end-of-the-year, discussion with my manager. What are some of the steps or tips that I should be doing to actually prepare? Let's see if I'm actually doing them (laughs). Laurie Battaglia (08:38): Yeah, exactly. So as a leader, I preferred... And the last two organizations... I mentioned the 20 years in savings loans, but then I went to Vanguard Mutual Funds, and then I ended up at Wells Fargo for 4 years. So I've kind of experienced all kinds of different financial organizations, and the two bigger ones had a very specific process to go to. and both used a self-appraisal process first. (09:06): Now, earlier in my career, we thought that the boss would know everything that we did, remember every project that we worked on, and they should know as much as I do about what I'm doing. And I've realized how, uh, uh, it, it's a recipe for disaster. They don't, they shouldn't, and you know what you've done, so why not document that? (09:29): And I learned a long time ago that I could probably influence the outcome of my own performance evaluation by the way I wrote my goals up and how closely I linked those to organizational goals or my boss's goals. Laurie Battaglia (09:46): So if my leader was getting judged on a certain thing, then I wanted to make sure that I was supporting that. And it took me a while to learn that too, I... Actually, this is kind of funny. There was a b- an old book called How to Work for a Jerk. And in- Nancy Ozawa (09:58): Love it (laughs). Laurie Battaglia (10:00): No names or places will be mentioned, but at that point I thought I was working for a jerk. So I bought that book, and when I read it it did a great job of saying, "Yeah, I bet you work for somebody like this, this, or this." And then it got around to, "And your job is to make the boss look good. Your job is to make sure that that leader is, um, hitting their goals and you're hitting your goals, and so on and so on." And when I flipped that switch from the victim of the jerk to well, I have some control over this, that was a mind-blowing moment. Um, I didn't expect that out of the book (laughs). Nancy Ozawa (10:37): (laughing) Laurie Battaglia (10:38): I wanted sympathy. Um, and I got some, but not, not... It was a, a mind-switch. (10:42): So when, when you do the self-performance... the self-appraisal on your performance, the idea is write down your goals and what you... And how you went about it, and what you accomplished and by when. And me as a leader receiving that, I was ever so grateful that they refreshed my memory on what they did four quarters ago... Or three quarters ago, or t- or even two quarters ago, because most of us remember what just happened, Or what's happening right now, but we don't really have the capacity to remember for 10 people exactly what each 10, each of the 10 were doing. Nancy Ozawa (11:20): And, and do you find that it's not just put down all the things that you did that met their goals, but anything additional that's outside of your normal job description,- Laurie Battaglia (11:29): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (11:29): ... that kind of s-... To show you're flexible and a little more valuable? Laurie Battaglia (11:33): Yes. Absolutely. (11:34): I think those things are important. And for a long time I was one of those people that volunteered for things. Um, and in one of the articles, we talk about volunteering and being on ERGs and BRGs. So ERGs, being, um, employee resource groups, where you get together with others like you. Let's say there's a Women at Work group, or something like that. Or there might be, um, a Latin group, uh, or an LGBTQ group, or something like that. (12:01): And then there are business resource groups, where people from all kinds of diverse backgrounds come together around a given goal. Way back in the day, I think we called those, um... Quality circles, I think, way, way back in the way. Nancy Ozawa (12:13): Mm-hmm. Laurie Battaglia (12:14): But now, through the lens of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. (12:18): And I find that sometimes what would happen is some people would get so busy in that volunteer work that they were perceived to be not really doing their jobs, the things that they were paid to do. So there's always that fine line balance there, You know, but, more organizations these days are actually giving people either recognition, ideally dollar recognition... Sometimes there's a stipend for leading an employee resource group. Because it does pull away from the things that you do, and it flows over oftentimes, to your personal time. And organizations weren't really used to paying people to do that work, and yet it's a critical piece of keeping people engaged and involved, and making them feel like their voices are heard. Nancy Ozawa (13:02): And y- you know, I find that balancing act between doing your job and then these extra ERGs, as you refer to them... To me, it comes back to your goals. Laurie Battaglia (13:11): Mm-hmm. Nancy Ozawa (13:12): Have you met your goals for what you've said you've done? And then, that can be the gravy on the top. Laurie Battaglia (13:17): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (13:18): And then that shows that you've, uh, strived a- and achieved that balance between those two entities. Laurie Battaglia (13:22): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (13:23): I'm assuming- Laurie Battaglia (13:24): Yes, yes. Nancy Ozawa (13:23): ... we've had a conversation about goals. Laurie Battaglia (13:26): Yes, assuming that. Nancy Ozawa (13:27): (laughs) Laurie Battaglia (13:28): Because a lot of times we have... You know, having worked in banking and finance, especially the last 17 years... Very metrics-driven. Very, very metrics-driven. So you could look and see the number, and then the idea was what's the line of sight from my role to that goal... That number, that metric, and do I really... And we're... Are we just counting to count something? Because I come out of the learning and development and leadership development world, ultimately. That's where I ended up after I got out of the operations-end, and I've... I sometimes thought we were trying to put numbers to something that was more about shifting thinking and things you couldn't necessarily count. (14:07): On the other hand, I now have the skill of putting numbers to anything. So I can, I can tell you how to count, and how to, how to make sure that where you are now is like... That you want to get a, a higher result through... Let's say leadership training. I now know how to measure the ROI on that. Um, which is a... It's a, it's a skill. (laughs) Nancy Ozawa (14:28): It definitely is. Laurie Battaglia (14:29): And not something that you typically come into. Nancy Ozawa (14:30): And- Laurie Battaglia (14:31): So yeah, it's, it's a good idea to be keeping track throughout the year of what you did, what you accomplished, what else you did as extracurriculars, and ultimately how that ties up to the business goals. That's where I see people really get off-track, especially earlier in their career. They're doing a lot, but they're not really meeting a business goal. And they're very, very busy, and they think they should get recognized for that, and that's not what the leader's looking at. Nancy Ozawa (14:59): Yeah. It's not work harder, it's work smarter or work [inaudible 00:15:55]- Laurie Battaglia (15:00): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (15:02): So you, you mentioned something, and I want to circle back because I think a lot of people struggle with this. Is you mentioned having your goals or your activity, uh, t- tied to what the leadership or your managers' goals are or how they're being evaluated. How do you open the conversation to get that information? 'Cause I think a lot of people go, "Oh, that's that, that person's information. I shouldn't ask." Laurie Battaglia (15:24): Right. Nancy Ozawa (15:25): But really- Laurie Battaglia (515:26): Right, right, right. Nancy Ozawa (15:26): ... you're, you're saying, uh, they need to be having that conversation, so how does a worker get that conversation started? Laurie Battaglia (15:32): They do. Yeah, that's a tough one because, ultimately in a perfect world, the leader cascades it down and there's no... That, that's the other thing that's much more our workplaces now, is open transparency about decision-making, salaries... All the things that we didn't used to talk about. Nancy Ozawa (15:46): Okay. Laurie Battaglia (15:47): So if you're working for somebody who was kind of raised in the we don't talk about those things kind of, perspective, then it's a little more difficult to open up the conversation. But I think you can always go in curious. I think that for me as a leader, I like nothing better than when someone came in and said, "I'd like to get ahead in this organization whatever that means. What conversations are already being had about me, if any? Where do I need to fix the perception of me, if, if indeed I'm off-track?" And, "Hey leader, how can I help you get to your goals?" Nancy Ozawa (16:23): Right. Laurie Battaglia (16:24): I like nothing better than that. And the feedback shift didn't change. Um, I remember one person that reported to me, and he had a very active life outside work... Very involved in his church, um, really known as a leader overall, but said, "You know, when I come to work, it's I don't want to lead people, I want to do this role and I want to do it really well." So my conversations with him were a lot around, "Just keep doing what you're doing. That really worked well, that really worked well." (16:53): Then he shifted, and he said, "I want to get into leadership here." And I said, "Ah. Well, now our conversations will change," because the feedback gets pointed at where you know that person wants to get to and what they're doing that supports that goal or might derail them from it. Nancy Ozawa (17:09): Right. Laurie Battaglia (17:10): So opening up the conversation with the leader, I think it comes from a place of curiosity, and saying "I want to support you "I'm curious, what do you get graded on? Nancy Ozawa (17:22): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (17:23): And I don't known if I'd do that in my performance review time, but I'd have it at a separate time. 'Cause I think depending on your leader, your leader might think, "Oh, you're just trying to... A, butter me up, um, B, uh, spend time on that when really we should be spending this time on you... I don't have much time today. You know, so- (17:43): ... there's a lot of things that can get in the way. But I think in a regular one-on-one would be a great time. Or when we're setting goals for 2024 or- Nancy Ozawa (17:50): That's where I was gonna go. Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (17:51): ... whatever period, that's the time to have that, "What are your goals? How do I support you in those goals?" Nancy Ozawa (17:58): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (18:00): And sometimes it's overt and sometimes it's, by doing the job that you're hired to do, and not necessarily a direct correlation, but sometimes there is one. Nancy Ozawa (18:08): Uh, I, I would echo that. I mean, I think when you're about to start a new year, or you're about to set your goals- Laurie Battaglia (18:13): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (18:14): ... Whether you're mid-year to mid-year, that's the time to have the conversation. And a lot of times I would say, you know, "I'm curious..." As you said, "I'm curious, how does what I do impact you and ultimately the organization? I don't see the connection. Help me with the connection." Laurie Battaglia (18:30): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (18:31): And then Most of them, are very open to having that conversation and being more transparent. They don't realize that they haven't been transparent. Laurie Battaglia (18:38): Right. We usually think that people know and people get it... And there's those words on the wall, as we call it, that which now could be a website rather than a wall... A physical wall, depending on where you're working from. Nancy Ozawa (18:49): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (18:50): but you know, when we used to walk into the bank and maybe there'd be a sign with the values, or what we believe in, or something like that, that made it really clear... And we think people get it, but they really don't always see the direct link from that to them. Nancy Ozawa (19:06): Right. Laurie Battaglia (19:07): And the more I, I as an employee understand that link, the more engaged I am. Or I opt out. One of the two. Nancy Ozawa (19:14): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (19:14): I, I'll go like, "Yeah, this is not my place,-" Nancy Ozawa (19:15): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (19:18): A- and we, we tee-up goals, an- and I've found that, uh... (laughs) One of my past bosses... I won't name his name either. But, uh, you know, uh, when we had our conversations, he never gave me goals. Laurie Battaglia (19:30): No. Nancy Ozawa (19:31): It was just like, "Nancy, this is great. Um, you know, what's next? What do you want to talk about?" And it was very much of me setting the agenda, so I set the agenda. Laurie Battaglia (19:41): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (19:42): And went through everything. And then I set up what I thought my goals where, kind of our old acronym as smart goals. So- Laurie Battaglia (19:47): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (19:48): ... if your manager's not setting it, you set the table, and have that- Laurie Battaglia (19:52): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (19:53): ... conversation and get what you need from them. 'Cause that- Laurie Battaglia (19:56): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (19:56): ... seemed to work for me, at least that conversation between me and my boss... Laurie Battaglia (20:00): I had the same situation. I think back in the day, early in my career, you knew you were doing okay if you kept getting promoted, and new titles and more money. and oftentimes in banking, at least in the savings and loan business, it was more about titles than it was about money (laughs). So I, I judged myself on what titles I got and, and how fast I progressed through the ranks. Nancy Ozawa (20:20): Right. Laurie Battaglia (20:21): But you're right, I think that, Sometimes when I talk to people who are early to mid-career now, and they're... They get upset when they have rapid changes in leadership and they have to keep reselling themselves over and over, I have to keep, have to keep training them, educating them, and all of that. And, I actually had a number of people do that at one period... I mentor in this one program, and it just seemed like that was the theme. (20:42): And I said, um, "Okay. I have a solution for that, are you ready?" And I saw them like pick up the pencil and get ready to write, and I said, "Get really good at that." And, and the person just sat back, and I started to say that to every person, "Get really good at that." And I said, "Because you will be doing that over and over in your career. You will have multiple leaders, or you will need to sell yourself, and your skills, and, and your knowledge, and everything that you do to somebody else. And I as an owner of a business, had to sell myself every single day, and do it in a way that's not smarmy, or, Or resentful." Laurie Battaglia (21:21): And so, "Get really good at that. The next time that somebody comes in, keep score with yourself on how well you do that." Nancy Ozawa (21:28): Right. Laurie Battaglia (21:30): And, a- and I think it all goes hand-in-hand with that performance conversation. You're right. It... We didn't get a lot of direction, and chaos can be good for setting your own direction. Nancy Ozawa (21:39): Right. Laurie Battaglia (21:39): What it's not great for is when people do have rapid changes in leadership, and the employee is doing a really great job and can't get that promotion because nobody's there in the room to sing their praises because nobody knows them well enough. That's where the downfall is. But other than that, there can be an upside too. Nancy Ozawa (21:58): I love that one, because there has been a lot of change. And even recently there's been a lot of layoffs, which means there's- Laurie Battaglia (22:03): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (22:04): ... a lot of change in who you report to, or who's still on your team and stuff. Laurie Battaglia (22:08): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (22:09): You come into, uh, your performance review with your brand new boss... And hopefully you've had some conversations with that person before, You think you're ready for that promotion. You're ready for that benefit. You're ready for whatever that thing is. Is there any tips to having that conversation with your new manager, to show them, what you've been doing for the last few years and show them that you're ready for it... Without feeling entitled? Because I think some coming into the workforce, have got that entitlement piece. We d- want to be honest and- Laurie Battaglia (22:38): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (22:39): ... sincere about it. Any- Laurie Battaglia (22:40): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (22:40): ... tips for that kind of scenario? Laurie Battaglia (22:41): Yeah. if you've got a brand new boss... I think worst case scenario, you're walking in and your boss has just started their job in the last month. If they're there six months, hopefully you've had a chance to pick their brain and ask them questions. My goal whenever I go into a new job or have a new boss, is figure that person out as quickly as possible, (23:03): I would let my boss know how I operated, and find out as best I can how they operate... And how their brain works, and what kind of information do they want? And are they detailed or are they very strategic, just high-level, but I better have the detail just in case? How... I want to get inside their head. (23:20): If it's really recent and the person's really new, then I would ask them what would make it easy for them to understand what I'd been working on all year Because if I do, it comes back positive for me, the employee. And I think we get into this push-pull thing, where it's like, "I'm not gonna educate one more person on what I do." Um, good luck with that, (laughs)- Laurie Battaglia (23:42): ... because it will not be, it will not be pretty for you ultimately. Your job is to make it easy. Nancy Ozawa (23:49): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (23:50): Their job should be the same, to make it easy. If we all tried to make it easier for each other, I think (laughs) we'd have a much easier world to live in. (laughs) So. Nancy Ozawa (23:58): Agreed. Agreed. And, and I think you've kind of teed-up where I think we should go next, is we've kind of focused on the employee and asking the right questions... And preparing but let's put our manager hat on. In this day of age of performance reviews, what are some of the best practices that managers should be doing, in case they're not doing it? I know a lot of people listening might manage a team of 1, or 5, or even 10- Laurie Battaglia (24:23): Right. Nancy Ozawa (23:24): [inaudible 00:26:31] a few things that they're not doing or not doing well, what would be some of those suggestions you might have? Laurie Battaglia 23:29): I think the hardest thing is keeping track of what people are doing all year long so that you remember it. So, any way that you have of doing that... Whether it's the old-fashioned print something out and put it in a folder, or file it online, or make a note somewhere... I tend to not think to do that in the moment of the, of, of the thing, or you think you're gonna do it later and it never gets done. Nancy Ozawa (24:53): Right. Laurie Battaglia (23:54): I think that if you at least have a quarterly performance-based, um, or progress-based... I don't know what you want to call it, but a look at... Like how are you doing and a look ahead, any notes you take from that can be really good. (25:08): I don't know if peoples' firewalls allow this, but typically... I have something now that attaches to Zoom called Fathom Notetaker, and that thing takes notes, and summarizes, and does all kinds of things. So it takes the, um, pressure off of having to write the notes, and find the notes, and file the notes, and all of that. Um, that you could just file that recording, and look at that overview. (25:31): But whatever way you've got to periodically... Monthly, quarterly, whatever, check in and take notes about what that person's been doing... Plus and minus, and make sure they're getting the feedback along the way... Um, especially about the things that, that need correcting, um, I think that we're all better off. (225:53): The other thing I think is a really best practice, is when we're giving feedback to people- Nancy Ozawa (25:57): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (25:58): ... One of the things that made a massive difference in the way I facilitated in the classroom was not only hearing what I was doing and whether I should keep or change it, but the impact of what I was doing. (26:11): So for three years I facilitated leadership development training full-time, and my boss would come in the room... And since nobody had ever done that before, initially I would kind of stop breathing, um, and be like, "Oh." And then, um, I got used to it, and she would... She was a very fast writer, and she would write down what happened, "So, you asked this question." She'd quote it, "You've asked this question. People leaned in. The impact was positive. You really got them engaged. Keep doing that." (26:39): That was as important to me as, "And then you snapped quickly at John (laughs), and do you remember that?" I would yes or no, and then, "Well, at that point not only did John sort of back off, but I don't know if you realized it but other people did too. And you had a hard time when you asked your next question getting further engagement. Do you remember that?" "No, I don't, but okay." "So assuming that's the case, what might you do differently next time?" (27:08): And so that conversation and that just chronological order of what she saw me do and what worked... And, "Keep doing that more often," and then, "What didn't work?" And having the conversation how might you handle that differently... That it wasn't in the moment of, you know, fear in the classroom, it was after... But soon after, uh, just up-leveled my skills like nothing else ever did. That impact of "What..." You know, "When you do this, then the impact is this. Do you want to keep doing that or do you want to shift it?" (27:40): And then oftentimes when I was certifying other trainers later on, I would give them the feedback and then I'd say, "Do you want to take it up a notch? I can give you a, I can give you a here's how to get to the next level," and they would be like, "Oh, yeah." And then I would tell them, "Okay. When that happened, that was good what you did. What you might do differently, is ask this kind of question and see where it goes." And the- then they would be like, "Okay, I'm gonna try that next time." And that's how we build skills in people, that's how we stretch people, and that's how we kind of stretch ourselves too. Nancy Ozawa (28:13): A- and then I think what you j- you just laid out is a, a great, plan for constructive commenting, feedback. 'Cause, 'cause- Laurie Battaglia (28:20): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (28:21): ... sometimes you've got criticism to share, but it needs to be constructive. Laurie Battaglia (28:24): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (28:25): But the point you just also made is it's got to be in the moment or very recent, or you have enough details to jog that person's memory back to that particular incident if it's a month later, to have a,- Laurie Battaglia (28:35): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (28:36): ... a conversation that both sides benefit. Laurie Battaglia (28:39): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (28:40): You know, it in- Laurie Battaglia (28:41): 'Cause ultimately, you want the person to land... To stay, to do well. I mean, most of us aren't looking to just go in and trash people's lives. Some, some might be. But we're few and far between, and they get found. Um, one, one lifetime or the next, I usually say. Either, either now or later karma comes back around. (28:59): But I think that, you know, people really need to... They need to hear the feedback, they need to know what people are thinking, and the time for covering that up is gone. Nancy Ozawa (29:09): Right. And I've found that taking the emotion out of it,- Laurie Battaglia (29:14): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (29:15): ... and just saying, "I saw this. This happened. This happened." Not, "Love, y- you are horrible at this, and stop doing it." You know, you- Laurie Battaglia (29:22): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (29:23): ... add emotion and it's not very constructive. But- Laurie Battaglia (29:25): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (29:26): ... it needs to be a little more factual-based, so that both sides can have a conversation and the walls don't go up on either side. Laurie Battaglia (29:33): And I think that we have to... Th- that we have to give grace to the person who... Just because we're taking the emotion out of it, it's gonna land on them from an emotional place,- Nancy Ozawa (29:41): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (29:42): ... let that happen. Um, you know, we used to try to stuff it, and then people would just stuff it and stuff it, and it didn't, it didn't end well. Laurie Battaglia (29:51): But I think we don't want to stuff it, I think we want them to experience what they're gonna experience. But going back to when Pam used to give me feedback... And I heard a, I heard a statistic later on. I'm not sure where this comes from, but they say that for every piece of negative feedback, we humans need to hear five pieces of positive- Nancy Ozawa (30:09): I have heard that. Laurie Battaglia (30:10): ... just to balance it out, because we focus so much on the negative. Nancy Ozawa (30:12): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (30:13): And I, I learned so much about what I should keep doing from Pam identifying, "And then you did this, and this happened. And it worked. Kudos, keep going. And then you did this, and then this happened. Keep on doing that." So that helped me not only know the few things I needed to work on, but it gave me that balance of, "Oh... You know, most of us, we, we get our performance appraisals and we look for the bad news. (laughs) Like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm doing great, but where's the bad news?" And I think we need to really keep in mind as leaders that balance factor, of... And the humanity, uh, and how it lands on people. Nancy Ozawa (30:50): Right. Laurie Battaglia (30:51): The long-term impact- Nancy Ozawa (30:52): Right. Laurie Battaglia (30:52): ... of our words and deeds. Nancy Ozawa (30:53): 'Cause I don't think anyone wants the negative, but they know that, that the negative being honest and it's constructive, that helps them grow- Laurie Battaglia (31:01): It does. Nancy Ozawa (31:02): ... You know, and likewise, if you're not getting the constructive... You're not getting an area to grow on, then as a worker, I ask for that. Laurie Battaglia (31:10): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (31:11): You know, "I need one or two things to work on. Laurie Battaglia (31:13): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (31:14): ... What would those two be?" So you know, it's both sides, either the manager pointing it out... The most highest one that needs to be dealt with, or the worker asking more specifically. Laurie Battaglia (31:24): Yeah. So, many leaders are afraid to tell us the hard truth. Nancy Ozawa (31:27): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (31:28): And they're especially... let's put gender in this for a second. I find especially that many male bosses... I'm gonna stereotype here, are afraid that the female is going to cry. Nancy Ozawa (31:39): Mm. Laurie Battaglia (31:40): So what? Let her cry, if that's the case... And I've also had that in reverse with men, where I'm delivering a message and the guy gets... His voice breaks, and he's really afraid not to, to be, to be in that moment of emotion. It's okay. Have a box of tissues if you're in person, and let people experience what they experience. Because when we get nervous about it, it makes them nervous and it makes it worse. Nancy Ozawa (32:05): Right. Laurie Battaglia (32:06): And now we're embarrassed and shamed, and it doesn't have to be that way. Like, we're human. Nancy Ozawa (32:10): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (32:11): If we cry about something, we cry about something, and then we go on,- Nancy Ozawa (32:15): Right. Laurie Battaglia (32:16): ... you know, and figure out a way to live, live through that. Nancy Ozawa (32:18): Yeah. 'Cause that may be the first time that they'd been given some constructive criticism, and- Laurie Battaglia (32:23): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (32:23): ... they really haven't built the skills to hear it, rather than just to react to it. So, yeah. Laurie Battaglia (32:28): Right. Right. Nancy Ozawa (32:29): As managers, you do need to have, to allow that grace to happen. Laurie Battaglia (32:32): Absolutely. Yes. Nancy Ozawa (32:34): You know, one thing that haven't touched on, and I'd love to know your opinion... And we've kind of talked more about the worker and the manager directly having all of the feedback, but a lot of organizations do 360s. Laurie Battaglia (32:45): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (32:46): Bring in peers commenting about them, and other departments. What's your feeling about what is the appropriate amount of outside peer-type in feedback, versus way too much? I mean, I've done 360s, and everyone found out I did great reviews, so all of a sudden I had 30 of them and I'm like, "Okay. Well, now I'm not- Laurie Battaglia (33:04): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (33:05): ... gonna do as well to- Laurie Battaglia (33:06): Right. Nancy Ozawa (33:07): ... give you feedback." Laurie Battaglia (33:07): Right. Nancy Ozawa (33:08): So where is the balance, do you think, on 360s? Do they have value, and h- at least how much and where's the line on that? Laurie Battaglia (33:13): I think they do have value. I always enjoyed hearing what was working from my... You know, the people that I was supporting, 'cause I was oftentimes in a support role. and I wanted to know whether what I was doing was working or not working. (33:26): and we have to be cognizant that people are on the receiving-end of a whole lot of these. If I can pick out for the average peer that I interact with but it's not like... My life's not dependent on us getting along and, and getting work done together, I would want to give one or two strengths and any area that they might work on. and I do that very... I would always do that very carefully, because I know that it's possible that their leader's gonna take that verbatim... And put it over there, and they may or may not know it came from me. (33:59): What I'm hoping happens, that the leader takes it all in and then pulls some key points of, of pluses and things to work on... or, "Hey, I saw a theme there, where... And here's some phrases that people said." Um, that's what I hope is on the receiving-end. (34:15): But I think for the people that my life depends, my work life depends on us doing it well together, I really want to make sure that I'm very careful with that feedback and that I give praise where praise is warranted and I give m- formative, y- you know, constructive feedback where it's due. (34:33): But going back to Pam, when I went to complain about how another trainer had hogged all my time and I didn't have time to cover my content, she said, "Well, go tell her about it." And I said, uh, "No, I don't... I don't, I'm not gonna tell her. You, you tell her." (34:49): And, uh, Pam made it very clear that peers were to give each other feedback in the moment too. Like, that, "Hey, let's sit down and talk about this. When you go 40 minutes, and I only had 20 to start with and you just took 15 of my 20, I can't cover what we've committed to cover together. So how might we work together, or what, what do you want to do so that... You know, when your time's up, do I give you a signal? Do I give you a 5-minute warning? What, what are we gonna do here?" Um,- Nancy Ozawa (35:14): Exactly. And I think, I think it- Laurie Battaglia (34:15): ... I didn't know how to do that at the time. Nancy Ozawa (35:17): An- and where you're teeing-up is you're giving them th- opportunities as peers to have those constructive Laurie Battaglia (35:24): Yes. Nancy Ozawa (35:25): ... conversations, that later they'll eventually have as a manager. Laurie Battaglia (35:29): Right. This is true. Nancy Ozawa (35:29): But that's in a, probably a little less risky-type of an opportunity right now. Laurie Battaglia (35:34): Yeah. Yes. And we're holding one another accountable, You know, a lot of times we try to recreate that family dynamic at work, which I'm soundly against, by the way. But I feel like you were running to mom or dad, or, or whatever adult was in our life. Um, and sometimes running and ratting... Like, "I didn't like what she did, and I want you to tell her. I don't want to tell her." Nancy Ozawa (35:54): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (35:55): And you know, it's a very, child-parent kind of relationship, and that's not really what we want to foster in the workplace to begin with., we want it where everybody's got equity and people are equally, able to do what they're there to do. Nancy Ozawa (36:09): Yeah. Or if it is a family business, 'cause I know some of our, Laurie Battaglia (36:12): (laughs) Some are. Nancy Ozawa (36:13): ... clients are family business... I've worked for a company where it was, mostly family,- Laurie Battaglia (36:19): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (36:19): ... but they didn't bring the fam- family drama into the workplace. Everyone was called by their first names. It was referred to by your job. It was never, "My daughter, my wife, my whatever." Laurie Battaglia (36:29): Right. Nancy Ozawa (36:30): It was, you know, "So-and-so, go ask them if they'll write this." And it was just... I actually didn't know that they were, uh, related for a first couple months, so that- Laurie Battaglia (36:38): Which is probably a really good... Well, on some ways, probably a really good thing. I did... Uh, one place I worked, someone sat me down earlier on, and they're like, "Okay, look. A lot of people in here are related to one another or they might be living together, but you wouldn't know it because their last names are not the same..." And, "Be very wary that people in this department, this group, often one knows the other knows the other,- Nancy Ozawa (37:03): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (37:04): ... so you're gonna want to factor that in." (laughs) Nancy Ozawa (37:07): Exactly. Laurie Battaglia (37:08): And I was like, "Okay, I don't think I'm a gossiper anymore..." 'Cause this was later in my career, "I don't think I'm a gossiper anymore, but I'll fac- I will factor that in. Thank you very much. I'll be very careful." So, yeah. Nancy Ozawa (37:17): Absolutely. Absolutely. Laurie Battaglia (37:18): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (37:20): Well, this has been a great conversation, and I think we've hit on many different things. Let's see if we can box it up. Can you kind of summarize what are the key things that I as a worker or I as a manager really should do to have that productive conversation about someone's performance? Laurie Battaglia (37:34): Yeah. I think from a very practical aspect, keep records somehow, somewhere, that you can go back and access easily... In a perfect world, otherwise go back and look at your calendar and see what was really going on. That's, that's the, um, Laurie method, of when I would start pulling all my things together. (37:54): but be prepared for it. Get... And the more you prepare during the year, the easier it is at your end, versus, "Oh my gosh, we have to reconstruct the whole year." So, be ready. (38:05): Normalize those conversations throughout the year, so that it's not one big massive ugly conversation. I think... it's something like 90% of leaders dread the performance evaluation. So it's not just the people receiving it, it's the people doing it as well. And it does occupy large amounts of time. (38:23): So practically, get ready for it, have your data together, and then just think about the tone of what you want to set... And this is on either end of it, and remain curious on both ends. Remain curious, ask the questions. find out what people are thinking, and ultimately find out how you're being talked about in performance and promotion kinds of conversations, so that you can shore up any areas where you might not have the skills or experience... Or education, if that's an issue. that you get going on that, if indeed you want to make a next step up. But up is not the only way, it's, You know, you can, you can live very happily in, uh, lateral moves and staying in one job and being the expert. E- everybody's- Nancy Ozawa (39:12): Absolutely. Laurie Battaglia (39:13): ... got a different path. Nancy Ozawa (39:14): Absolutely, sharing kind of what your vision of where your t- career track is in your mind- Laurie Battaglia (39:19): Mm-hmm. Nancy Ozawa (39:20): ... with the manager is always a good part of that conversation to have too. Laurie Battaglia (39:22): Yes. Yes, yes. Nancy Ozawa (39:23): Well, I, I think this has been great. It's been kind of nice to kind of remember back in our history of all the jobs we've had, but also to think about today being a different part of... You know, the workforce is much different today. Laurie Battaglia (39:34): Very. Nancy Ozawa (39:35): The conversations we have today are different, but I think more important, 'cause they're more people-oriented and people are really looking to be part of a great company. Laurie Battaglia (39:45): They are. They are. We want to go to work and feel good about it. We don't want to like have the Sunday scaries, as I've heard them called, um, when we're getting ready to think about the next work week that we're going into on Monday. Nancy Ozawa (39:57): Agreed. Laurie Battaglia (39:59): We don't want to do that. Nancy Ozawa (39:59): Agreed. Laurie Battaglia (40:00): Yeah. Nancy Ozawa (40:01): So, uh, thank you. Thank you for this conversation. It was a pleasure to talk about it. One last question. If any of the listeners want to connect with you, either to talk more about leadership skill-building or supporting their workforce, how would you suggest they do that? Laurie Battaglia (40:14): The easiest way is, drop me an email. So Laurie, L-A-U-R-I-E, @ and then AlignedatWork, spelled out A-L-I-G-N-E-D-A-T-W-O-R-K.com. Laurie@AlignedatWork.com. (40:30): And The way we met one another was on LinkedIn. Nancy Ozawa (40:33): Yeah. Laurie Battaglia (40:35): So, LinkedIn is my go-to place. I have, um, LinkedIn Lives. We have a newsletter called, The Wake Up Call, on LinkedIn. Look up Laurie Battaglia. And, on that newsletter... We did one at mid-year, and then we took it up a notch for year-end and talked about more of the strategy behind it. So the mid-year one is, uh, about tactics for performance appraisals, and then the year-end one is, "Here's other stuff you want to think about..." Much of which we covered today. Nancy Ozawa (41:04): Fabulous. Fabulous. And we'll put all of those contact details right on our podcast page, so, uh,- Laurie Battaglia (41:08): Perfect. Nancy Ozawa (41:09): So, thank you again for joining us. Uh, to our listeners, thank you again for tuning in. If you haven't already, make sure to check out all of our other episodes. And make sure you subscribe, that way you're the first to know when a new episode like this one drops. (41:23): We're always looking for suggestions on what to cover, so if you've got something in mind... Like to be a guest on our podcast, please let us know by emailing us, at BankingOutLoud@PCBB.com. (41:34): Until next time, take care, and Bye-bye.