A Middle Manager’s Guide To Driving Organizational Success

Nancy Ozawa (00:06): Hello and welcome to Banking Out Loud, the podcast where we have handed conversations and deliver insights on thanking topics that our listeners want to know more about. I'm your host, Nancy Awa. In today's episode, I wanted to think about the financial services industry, and specifically, we employ over 2 million workers in the United States. These workers and institutions have seen a lot of changes in both staffing and positions over the past decade. If we look just in the last few years, COVID, the great retirement era where many executives retired and many promotions occurred, many of these workers, and probably many of our listeners, are in middle management, seeking to stay current and even learn a few new strategies for being an effective middle manager, both for their team, their peers, their boss, and even maybe their boss's boss. So, recently sat down with Scott Mouse, the author of Leading From the Middle, A Playbook for Managers to Influence Up, down and across the organization to discuss leadership strategies for middle managers. We touched on the valuable role that a middle manager holds, the influence they wield, and the critical translation of strategy to tactics that flows through this role. We even explored key steps to being an incredibly effective middle manager, as well as ways to influence peers, their boss or team members. So let's listen in on that conversation that Scott and I had. Hello Scott, how are you? Scott Mautz (01:34): Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Nancy Ozawa (01:35): Yes, hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Thank you for joining us. Scott. Welcome. Scott Mautz (01:40): Yeah, thanks so much. I'm looking forward to chatting. Nancy Ozawa (01:42): Okay. So before we kind of dive into it, why don't we first chat a little bit about your background, because you've got a very interesting background to me, um, in terms of CPG and being a professor at Indiana University and a well-known author. So tell me a little bit about your background so we can kind of set the stage. Scott Mautz (02:02): Yeah, yeah, you bet. Well, you know, as you mentioned, I grew up in the corporate world, spent, uh, 25 years at Procter and Gamble was also in mortgage investment banking before that with City Corp. I left the corporate world about eight years ago to do this full-time to broaden my platform for making a difference. Really, Nancy, that's the best way I could put it with a written in the spoken word. And so now I speak all over the world and do a lot of writing, not only in books, but in columns and in the blogs that I write. And I teach a lot of LinkedIn learning courses. I also teach and, and do a lot of things through my relationship with Indiana University. And I have been doing this for almost eight years, full-time. Really enjoy it, feel like everything I've been doing is led up to this. And I even get to do it from sunny San Diego, California. 'cause you can do what I do wherever you want. And so I did, my wife chose San Diego and that's where we are. . Nancy Ozawa (02:55): Perfect. Well, and San Diego's got nice weather. I'm from the northern part California, so, ah, Scott Mautz (03:00): Okay. Nancy Ozawa (03:01): So you know what, we both enjoyed the California weather. Scott Mautz (03:02): Yeah, yeah. That, that's, that's exactly right. Nancy Ozawa (03:05): Yeah. What led you to write this particular book Leading from the Middle? Scott Mautz (03:09): Yeah, it, it really started, honestly, Nancy, in the middle of my journey in corporate, where I, I started really noticing, uh, actually a pretty dis discerning dividing line between people that really thrived in hierarchy and ones that didn't. And it always interested me like, you know, is there a secret sauce? Is there something about people that know that they have to lead up, down and across to do their job well and, and then do that well versus ones that kind of get caught in the machine and get ground down by the fact that they're middle of the organization and they feel like they can't get anything done. So I noticed real differences in people doing that, and I started studying it pretty intensely almost two decades ago. Given what I do now for a living, I do pretty formal research behind all of this. (03:53): So it's not just observations and musings of an old dude, but I, I started doing a lot of research behind trying to discern the difference between middle managers who are truly great at what they do versus ones that just happened to be in middle management positions. The amount of things I was starting to uncover, the thematic nature of what really truly talented middle managers once considered. So by their peers, people that report to them and their bosses. Once I started to find it, oh my gosh, I think I can codify this. That's when I really decided I wanted to, I wanted to write the book. Nancy Ozawa (04:27): Right. And, and I wanna tap into some of those key benefits and key attributes. So the, the best ones. But I guess I wanna start off with a basic foundation for folks, because you had an interesting perspective and, and I've heard this too, that a lot of folks that are in middle management, they don't see that as a plus . They, they always think that they wanna get to the top and they have this feeling you get to the top and you get to kick back and relax. And you don't, you have everybody else do the work, but they're actually in a very valuable position. And I thought you really kind of articulated that well of they've got a very unique position to basically influence up, down and around, which a lot of people don't have that ability to do. Scott Mautz (05:06): Yeah. I really encourage, you know, middle managers to feel proud about that, Nancy, you know, to really understand that they really do have, they're in a unique position because they're at the intersection of information and activity flow in the organization. They're right in the dead center, and they have such a, an impact on the organization. And I talk about it in the book leading from the middle, that studies have shown middle managers account for 25% of the variation of revenue in an organization, really three times more than people whose job it is to just innovate for their organization. I talk about a five year Stanford study that showed replacing a poor middle manager with just an average one is the equivalent, the productivity equivalent of adding a net new person to the team. So the value to the middle manager cannot be understated. And I, uh, I really try hard in my work to make sure middle managers feel like exactly what they are the heroes of an organization, the backbone of the organization. Yeah. As I call them. Nancy Ozawa (06:08): And, and they've got some critical roles. I mean, you made a very good point that strategy typically happens at the highest level, and tactics happen at the bottom level. And they sit there as a translator between the two of trying to translate strategy into tactics and talking that language both ways. There's got, and there's lots of other benefits that you touched on in the book. Do you wanna elaborate a little bit more on those benefits? 'cause I don't PE think people that are in that position realize what a special position it is. Scott Mautz (06:36): Yeah, yeah. I talk about it as, you know, rocking your roles. You wear so many hats as a middle manager, and for sure that's a, that's a source of exhaustion that many people feel the constant switching of hats, whereas psychologists call it micro switching. You're constantly moving from one role to the other. But at the same time, the variety of roles, uh, you know, I've been able to identify through my research, they're all incredibly important in their own right. So, you know, translator, you, you mentioned that Nancy, the best middle managers that I see in my interviews and, and I have interviewed well over now, you know, we're getting closer to 5,000 middle managers that are appointed as and labeled as excellent by their peers and by their bosses. And I see translating is a big role. Meaning when you're in the middle and a strategy gets passed down to you, your job isn't to just relay it verbatim to somebody else to tell your organization. (07:30): That's not your job. Your job is to translate, okay, this is what our, our leaders are trying to accomplish with this strategy. This is why it matters. This is why it matters to you. You might not even agree with the strategy, but it, it's your job as a middle manager to say, okay, this is the essence of why it's still important. Even if there are some things that I may, may have done different in the way it was deployed or whatever. And the best middle managers are able to amplify the power and the clarity of messages from above higher in the organization. The ones that aren't so good at it, they either just ignore the message and don't even translate it or share it. Or if they just share the message, they add no top spin, they add no insight, they add no amplification to it. Nancy Ozawa (08:15): Right. Right. Scott Mautz (08:16): And that's just one of the many roles that no managers have to play in. When they do, they add incredible value to the company. Nancy Ozawa (08:21): Yeah. Because the strategy may be to penetrate this market or grow this product by x percent, but that doesn't have any plans or tactics associated with deadlines, budgets, anything. And that middle manager needs to start to create those to be able to translate this down for the rest of the folks to be able to follow and execute. That's right. Scott Mautz (08:41): That's right. Nancy Ozawa (08:42): Now earlier you started talking about some of the excellent middle managers there. You know, how would you know one in your sleep is probably one of my questions. Scott Mautz (08:51): . Oh, you mean what makes a great middle manager great. Is that what you mean? Nancy Ozawa (08:55): Yeah, yeah. I mean, how do you know you are one? Or how do you know that you maybe are close to it or maybe not even close to it? So how do you define that? Scott Mautz (09:04): Yeah, uh, I'll, I'll touch on just a few. First thing is to understand that you, you have to start by understanding that you truly are at the intersection of information and activity flow in an organization. And that if you're, if you are good at managing up to your boss, which I have an entire chapter on, yeah. If you're good at managing down to your employees, if you're good at, at influencing your peers, those over whom you have no formal control, then you are probably a pretty darn good middle manager. Because by default you're already operating well in all different directions in the organization. I'll give you just a couple other telltale signs of, of some of the really best middle managers that, that are really hard to miss. I think one for sure is great. Middle managers are able to ask themselves what I call the golden question, am I assisting success or am I avoiding failure? Nancy Ozawa (09:57): Love that question. Scott Mautz (09:59): And in the middle, if you think about it for a second, if you're a middle manager trying to avoid failure, what are you doing? You're hiding behind your role. Well, I'm not in charge, I'm just a middle manager. The people above me make all the decisions. My job is to just execute, which is not always true at all. Oftentimes the most important strategic thinkers are the middle managers because they're the closest to the problems in the organization and the opportunities in the organization. So if you have a mindset of I am here not to avoid failure and get lost in the, the folds of the company, I'm here to assist success. Think about what that does to the mindset of a middle manager. If you truly believe I'm here to assist success, how do you do that? Well, you assist upwards by being a maximally powerful resource for management by leading their thinking. You assist downwards by engaging in brilliant coaching, giving feedback, and all the powerful tools for all the people that report to you. All of which I go deep into and leading from the middle, you assist across to your peers. You give them support they didn't, they don't normally get from peer groups just because you want to be a good teammate. So there's this idea of assisting success versus avoiding failure that I think is essential to a good manager. I think the best middle managers are also epicenters of encouragement. Nancy Ozawa (11:16): Yeah. Scott Mautz (11:17): Just like you lie on the fault line of the company right in the middle, you can cause that fault crack and create earthquakes. Or you can view it as you're right on the nervous central system of the organization culturally. And you could be the epicenter of encouragement by giving informed encouragement. Tell your boss when they do something good, specifically tell them when they do and why tell your employees when they do something really good, give them instructive feedback that's specific about, you know, asking yourself, well, not just they are doing a good job. Why are they doing a good job? What about the job are they doing is adding value to the company? What about it is adding value? To me, it's what I call informed encouragement as opposed to just a general rah rah. You know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, saying, you know, Hey, you could do it. It's more powerful when you can articulate why you believe they can do it. Nancy Ozawa (12:12): Right. Scott Mautz (12:13): That's giving informed encouragement and the best middle managers do that, um, in, in all directions. I, I really think Nancy Ozawa (12:19): I've seen examples of that and I wonder if you've got any comment on it. Instead of saying, great job, you say, I really appreciated the way you put that client at ease and how much more comfortable they tended to be and how much more easier the, the whole meeting went. So you're giving 'em very specific behavior that they did and, and the results you presented in such a nice way that the client was very relaxed and very receptive to our ideas so they know exactly what it is that they did well so they can repeat it versus good job, they're like, okay, I did something good, but not quite sure what I did is that's kind where you're netted. Scott Mautz (12:56): Exactly. Just to build on what you're saying, my grandfather used to say, white bread ain't nutritious. You know, you gotta eat the whole weed stuff kid. And you know, the same thing is true of feedback, whether it's positive or negative. You know, if you give bland generic feedback of like the first kind that you mentioned, Hey, you just did a good job, it's not gonna have much impact. But when you treat it like granular, whole bread, whole wheat bread, that's nutritious. Exactly. When you get down to the details of this is why I believe in you and what you did there, the the people know it's more meaningful because first of all, if you put thought into the impact of their behaviors and you've articulated it well, and if you've done it well in a way that's passionate and shows you mean it and it comes across as sincere. (13:39): Right. And if, you know, if it comes from the heart, it sticks in the mind. And that really makes a bigger difference over the long run. So yes, you're exactly right. One last tip, I'll give you one last telltale sign of a a really talented middle manager who makes the investment in the right places is they think of information sharing as an investment, not an intrusion. It's not an obligation. So the process, and I often tell leaders that I want you to think of the process of taking the time to share information at the same level as a strategy because it can have the same level of impact and it can be a lot of work. Like, you know, taking time to parse out information, share it with the organization so that they can consume it so they understand why you made the decision you made, why the company is deciding what they're deciding, going where they're going, sharing with them weekly market reports and telling them what's important about that. Sharing with them changes in the industry, sharing with them. You just got back from a leadership conference, I want to tell you what I learned. Investing the time it takes to share information, which does take time. You gotta view that as a strategy and something incredibly important, not an intrusion and a task that you have to do. Right. Nancy Ozawa (14:51): I've seen that you share what you've just learned or what you just heard. I want you to know these are some issues that are brewing right now. I wanna share these ideas with you because you didn't get to go to the conference. And I still wanna bring those lessons learned and see if any of them will help you. 'cause my approach is I'm helping you. I wanna invest in you, I want you to be successful. Scott Mautz (15:12): That's right. A hundred percent. You got it. Right. And there's so much more that are telltale signs like we opened up with discussing, believing in your power, the impact you can have in your organization. Yeah. Just because you aren't the leader doesn't mean you can't be a tremendous leader. Nancy Ozawa (15:28): Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes you need to start acting like that Yes. Person before you have that responsibility as well. Scott Mautz (15:37): Yes. You know, I'd be curious if you agree with this. I spent a long time in the corporate world. I've often found that one of the surest signs somebody was ready to be promoted in, in their role to the next level was they were already acting like that level and they probably were months ago. They're already thinking and advocating in the way that that person would, and that's usually a pretty good indicator. And so for people that do wanna keep rising up, they have to do what you're talking about, act like they're at that next level. Nancy Ozawa (16:03): I would definitely agree with that. I, I personally prescribed to it for my own self, but also focus on my teams for many different years. Um, it's nice to see them being able to do some of those skills and yes. Be able to coach them and make them feel comfortable so that when they do get in that job, it's not a huge stretch, it's just, you know, they, they've been walking now they can start running a little bit faster in that new role, Scott Mautz (16:27): . That's right. Well said. Very well said. I like that. Nancy Ozawa (16:30): Is there other things you might point to? 'cause I am thinking about our listeners, A number of them probably are middle managers, but I would imagine some are middle level within the company, but not yet managing a team. So they might not qualify for that. So are there other things they should be doing to get ready to be that, that excellent middle manager? Scott Mautz (16:50): Yeah, I often talk about the 50 50 rule. Okay. The 50 50 rule is saying, you know, especially when you're involved with a team that has a lot of, a lot of responsibilities, they're probably getting a lot of distractions, a lot of agendas and priorities being thrown at them. I find that in the chaotic times like that, it's really important to remember the 50 50 rule, which is spend 50% of your time on pragmatism with a team, 50% on possibilities with a team. Right? Hello, 50 and 50 equals a hundred, which means 0% of your time can be spent on spiraling down in clouds of negativity when you're in a chaotic moment or a moment of adversity. So I find middle managers that bring that spirit to their team and say, look, especially in adversity, look, we're not gonna spiral down. We're spending 0% of our time catastrophizing, worrying about what's gonna happen next. (17:42): 50% will be spent on pragmatism. What are we going to do about where we're at? 50% will spent on, on possibility. What does this unearth for us? That's actually an opportunity in the face of this adversity. And, and middle managers bring that discipline and that positive minded thinking to the table. I think another good sign that I see from middle managers are they act like the COO of their team, the chief operating officer, not just the chief executive officer. And I often tell people, be the CEO of your projects, know the details more than anybody else, you know, be able to respond as the CEO if they're in your chair. But it's also important to operate as the COO, the Chief operating officer, understanding what does my boss need to know? What details do we need to take care of on this team? What are the operating strategies we have? How do we keep the machine moving forward? And I see the best middle managers really love the grind, Nancy. They love the details, they love the operations of it all, and they serve as a cog in the middle of that wheel to make their team operate as smoothly as possible. Nancy Ozawa (18:53): Absolutely. Absolutely. As a manager, you don't need to know every single detail of how it's done because that's what you rely on your team members for. And also a perfect opportunity to put them in front and explain that and give credit to where credit's due. You still need to be aware of what the processes are and what kind of trends are going on and who's overloaded and who's not. Scott Mautz (19:15): Yeah, that's right. You know, and the question I also get on this front, Nancy, about, you know, how, how is a middle manager? Do we really make an impact on the team? And how do I influence people over whom I have no formal authority? They're your teammates. Right? They don't report to you. Right. Here's another tool I want, I did wanna share. I call it, you know, remembering the golden rule of influence. And it simply works like this. And I'll use you as an example, Nancy. Okay. I want you to think about now what we're trying to do here is we're solving for how can middle managers have influence over their peers, over people they have no formal authority over. Right? I want you to think about someone in your life right now. It can be personal, it can be a professional, somebody who holds tremendous influence over you, but you don't report to them. That's the only rule. It can't be your boss. Yeah. Think of anybody in your life that holds tremendous influence over you. Now when you have that person in mind, let me know, Nancy Ozawa (20:09): Okay, I got that person. Scott Mautz (20:10): Okay. Now, regarding that person, I am willing to bet that they do wanna four things consistently when it comes to you. I'll read them off one at a time and you tell me. Nancy Ozawa (20:20): Okay. Scott Mautz (20:21): Do they show that they care about you? Nancy Ozawa (20:25): Yes. Scott Mautz (20:26): Do they listen? Nancy Ozawa (20:29): Yes. Most of the time. Scott Mautz (20:30): Most of the time. , do they give you something of value? Nancy Ozawa (20:35): Yes. Scott Mautz (20:36): Yes. Do they teach you something of value from time to time? Nancy Ozawa (20:40): I would say yes. I feel like I walked away with a new perspective, a new idea, a new insight. Yes. Scott Mautz (20:46): That is the golden rule of influence. If when you think of your peers, if you can show that you care, you listen, you give and you teach. That is how you influence people who you have no formal swear over. And if you can follow that golden rule of influence and say, regarding my peers, I am going to find a way to show them I care, to show them that I'm listening to give them something of value to them in their life, I'm going to try to teach them something. You will have influence over those people, even though they don't report to you. And I've seen it in my data and in my research over and over and over again. Right. I find it to be very, very powerful. Nancy Ozawa (21:24): Yeah. And I think those middle managers tend to be a little bit more positive. The glass is half full, not half empty. Yes. That they're more open to influencing and caring for their team. But I also think of that person is really good at complimenting. They are. So you mentioned complimenting or giving credit to your boss or to your team, but to your peers as well, which is I think a little bit foreign concept for some folks. They might not think that it is really helpful. And I think giving a compliment to your peer in front of their boss is very powerful, which helps you become more of that ally with a peer because they're like, you helped me by showing my boss of what I've been doing. And I thought that is part of that building that allyship. Scott Mautz (22:14): Yeah, that's right. I mean, nobody wants to spend a lot of time and work closely with a critic. Everybody wants to work closely with an ally. And it's so powerful. I suggest this all the time to middle managers to take the time to understand, let's say your chief marketing officer, let's say you come across someone in the finance function that you really wanna give positive feedback to. A powerful thing to do is go find out what's important to the finance track at PCBB. What do they get evaluated on? What do they get rewarded for for them to move up the company? What is it important for a financial manager in your organization? What do they need to show? Knowing that when that person shows those things, go tell their boss about that. It's even more informed way to give feedback and to show you're actually thinking about other people's careers and wellbeing besides your own. Yeah. And it has just an incredibly powerful pull through effect. Nancy Ozawa (23:09): It's very powerful and, and I think as you point that I, I wouldn't have thought of their metrics that they're evaluated on, but I think that is that next personalized step. Yes. That does make it more powerful. And likewise, they're gonna remember it. And so they're gonna be looking for ways they can help you, maybe in front of your boss or with a project or some information maybe you might not be privy to, but they think you should have access to it and there's no confidentiality. So they might share that information so that you're a little bit more aware of bigger trends going on when you're making those translation and decisions on projects. Scott Mautz (23:43): That's right. That's exactly right. Very well said. Nancy Ozawa (23:45): Now you touched on boss and I, I find that usually gets a few people to raise their eyebrows because , you know, influencing the boss, people are like, I can't do that. I mean I, it's not sucking up to the boss. It truly is something bigger in that. So do you wanna touch on how you can lead or influence your boss? 'cause I think that's an important element most people wouldn't think of. Scott Mautz (24:09): Yeah. And I think I'm gonna surprise your listeners by telling them something they can do that's, um, I'm gonna say disproportionately powerful in this front. So, okay, first of all, in leading from the middle, I share a whole framework, what I call the managing up framework, a way to really build tighter relationships with your boss so you can influence them and work with them better in partnership. And sucking up is not managing up. No, those are not the same things and I don't suggest that at all. But I talk about a series of things you can do. And one thing you can do that people often get really surprised at is first and foremost to understand the asks, understand what is expected of you. If you want to influence your boss. And I'll give you an example, don't take this for granted. I conducted research, I called the FBI research, I'm up to over 300 situations where we invited a manager and a subordinate to a research facility. (25:02): The manager was in one room, the subordinate was in another room so that they couldn't hear what the other person was saying. This is why we called it the FBI research, we separate too. Sure. Then we would ask the employee, what do you think your boss expects of you? Write down what you think are the core basic expectations. And we give them some prompts. We did the same thing for the boss. What do you think your employee expects from you? What are the behaviors regarding this project? What do you think they're looking for? We found, and we continue to find every time we, we conduct this research in over 80% of the cases there are material breaches in understanding of the most basic expectations. So it's my way of saying with love in my heart, do not overestimate the ability to which you think your boss understands what you expect from him or her, or vice versa. (25:55): So it's absolutely vital to start by getting super clear on what your boss expects from you. You can ask questions like, Hey, what's the difference between good leadership to you boss and great leadership to you? Or what's the difference between good priority setting and great priority setting? And what happens is most often we're unclear on expectations because our managers aren't precise enough in their language. They leave too much to assumption. And when you force them to say, well, this is good leadership and they have to put words to it, and then you force them to say, well, this is great leadership, but they have to put words to it. That tension creates a clarity of what it is they're really looking for. Because most managers are looking for great, they're not looking for good. And in that discussion it becomes clear what's truly expected of you, which remember 80% of the time you might be wrong on what they really want from you. And once you start from that place, I guarantee you, you start delivering on those expectations, you'll be much more influential over your boss. Nancy Ozawa (26:56): I I love those. And that's a great questions to ask rather than just what is your expectation for me? Yeah. Right now, what is the difference between good and great? I think that really stimulates a better conversation. Scott Mautz (27:06): Yes, yes, yes. I also like to ask to my boss, what would get you promoted boss and whatever's important to them without boot licking and kissing up. Like if it fits with your projects and your strategic goals, why would you not help your boss to accomplish their goals? There's, there's other questions like that that could really help you get clear on expectations and build relationships Nancy Ozawa (27:26): And, and that touches on a, a podcast that we just did a few months ago with Lori Vital and it was talking about how do you get ready for a performance review. Yeah. And the first step of getting ready was not just understand what you've done and helping your boss remember all the things that you've done, but find out from them how they are rewarded. That's how they are compensated. What that's exactly right is metrics. So you can link your projects to specifically their metrics so that you're a lot more in alignment between those two. Scott Mautz (27:56): Yeah. You know, it's about aligning your agenda to their agenda. Not in a manipulative way. No. In a way that there's mutually acceptable goals and mutually desirable goals. And then you almost can't help but influence peers when that's the case. When your agendas are are linked. Yeah. Rather than separate and certainly rather than hidden agendas Nancy Ozawa (28:15): . Exactly. And it's, it's kinda like you expect the other person must know what I'm talking about. But yes, I often find that there's this balancing act between strategy and tactics in operation that sometimes the more strategic you get, the more you use a word and you expect people to be able to translate that word. Whereas I was a tactical person, I'd be very precise in my words. So when you're in that middle as you're moving up or moving around, you have to realize your language changes a bit that That's right. Your thinking changes a bit and you have to sit down and be more detail oriented with folks who are a little bit more to the right on that balance the, a little more tactical. Scott Mautz (28:55): That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Nancy Ozawa (28:57): And you just gotta be aware of that. I think I struggle with that balancing act quite a bit. And then finally when I get to strategic, I'm like, okay, I got strategic now I need somebody behind me to help me translate my strategic to operation, my operations to tactics. Yeah. And a new light basically turned on it when that happened. Scott Mautz (29:14): Yeah, that's right. It's some of the highest performing employees that you'll find in any company. This isn't my opinion, this is just behavioral science are the ones that can helicopter up and down like you're talking about. You could sit in strategy but then you know, when you can helicopter down and, and live and walk and breathe the execution it's gonna take to connect the dots and deliver on the vision that you outlined. Nancy Ozawa (29:33): Right. And, and that's really for me, uh, like a different hat I have to put on. 'cause it physically takes a while to shift your brain a little bit from one end to the other end. Scott Mautz (29:43): It's true. And there, there's a term for that. It's called micro switching. It's what makes middle management jobs so exhausting because you have to play so many roles, the constant switching and you know, this can happen. Tell me if this has ever happened to you. And, and by the way, when I say middle manager, I'm talking about anybody who has a boss or is a boss or aspires to be one someday. So even CEOs are middle managers by my definition, because they still have to report to the board. So the micro switching, it's just important to remember that when we switch so many times, it can truly be exhausting. Have you ever been in a meeting where, let's say you're leading the meeting and you are in authoritative mode and then your boss enters the meeting, all of a sudden you have to switch gears, you have to go from authoritative mode, and then the boss leaves the room and you have to switch into collaboration mode. That's three hats you wore within the span of one meeting. And it can be Yeah, really, really exhausting. Nancy Ozawa (30:41): I love all these tips and I know there's a ton more in the book. Let me kind of push you a little bit further out into the future a bit. Yeah, Scott Mautz (30:47): Let's Nancy Ozawa (30:47): Do it. I'm thinking about just banking and financial services, if that's possible. Yeah. We looked out maybe five or more years out. Do you see any major shifts in the way people work that will impact LA leadership strategies and management? Things that we need to be thinking ahead for? Scott Mautz (31:05): Well, I mean, that is incredible. You asked that question and listeners, I can promise you Nancy did not plan this. We did not talk that question in advance. No, Nancy Ozawa (31:14): I, I don't know what your answer's gonna be. Scott Mautz (31:16): It's almost crazy. You just said that the book that follows up from Leading from the Middle is a book called The Mentally Strong Leader. It's how you build the habits to productively regulate your emotions, your thoughts and your behaviors even in adversity. And so to answer your question, as the world becomes more and more divided, as we have a harder and harder time even agreeing on what the facts are as a society, as our world becomes more distracted, as more opportunity for self-doubt crops up, whether it's the banking industry or any industry mental strength is becoming the leadership superpower of our times mental strength, first of all, so that we're all on the same page. It's the ability to effectively regulate and productively regulate your emotions, your thoughts and your behaviors even in adversity. It's how we manage internally so that we can better lead externally. And I truly believe that mental strength is the next forefront with, you know, mental strength being defined by the six core muscles of mental strength, fortitude, confidence, boldness, goal focus, decision making, the ability to be a good decision maker and be decisive and messaging the ability to stay positive even in the face of negativity, to stay engaged with your audience. I truly believe that mental strength, which is a level above emotional intelligence, right, that is, is the next forefront and answer to your question. And again, we did not plan that in advance. No Nancy Ozawa (32:43): Well that, that's interesting. I mean, as you made that comment about how the world's shifting and how we might not agree on what the facts are, which yeah, you always thought the facts were pretty easy. They're just black and white. But we have found, we've learned lately that there's different versions of the facts. And you're right, that would definitely have a big impact on leadership is being able to mentally stay focused and being able to stay positive, as we said earlier here too. So you've teed me up to read my next book too. . Scott Mautz (33:14): Yeah, well the mentally strong leader that leading from the middle, they're meant to be a para, so I think you'll find it, it'd be a, a good compliment. Nancy Ozawa (33:20): Okay. Uh, we actually just did a podcast with Kendra Ramirez about ai and we specifically were talking about how it can facilitate work and how it mostly would be impacting white collar workers. Yeah. So I'm wondering if there's any overlap between the evolution of AI and how that might affect leadership strategies or leadership skills or leadership presence that we need to be thinking about. Scott Mautz (33:47): Yeah, I do believe that AI is going to shape our efficiency and our productivity to free us up on things that are higher value tasks. And from what I have seen so far, and from what I've read and from what I know to be true of friends who speak in the AI space, they can tout the benefits of how AI can take some of the more mundane tasks out of the way that free us up to use our other ai, our actual intelligence, right? Instead of our low level artificial intelligence, we don't need to do some of the lower tasks. So I really believe it's here to stay, it's already integrated into our life. What I think you're gonna find out, it's gonna be a major productivity enhancer and an enabler. And I don't really subscribe quite as much to the doomsayers about it because I do believe in the human spirit and we're gonna find the right way to use AI so that it enhances our ai, our actual intelligence. Um, that that's, that's what I believe to be true. Nancy Ozawa (34:45): And then the impact on leadership would be, as you were just saying, if AI takes over some more repetitive, mundane tasks, then I as a manager should have more time to be talking to my peers or to my boss or to people on my team. And really, so we've got more of that communication time or social time that we need if we've got some of the administrative tasks taken off. Scott Mautz (35:10): Yeah, I think that's right. And you know, with that comes some investment, right? I mean, you don't just, all of a sudden too, we know how to leverage AI in your business. You just don't, there's a learning curve that you have to learn. You know, I'm even now learning the power of it and what, what, how it could help me and shape my business. So I think you're a hundred percent right Nancy, as long as you understand that there is no free lunch, that you don't get the productivity gains and all the benefits that it comes. If you aren't smart about learning and putting yourself out there and saying, look, I am not an AI expert. I wanna learn how it can help my business invest that time just like you would in building any other skill so that I can pay dividends in the long run. Nancy Ozawa (35:46): Yeah. One person gave me the suggestion that you write a job description for your AI bot of what you want them to do for you and become a little more clear what the electronic AI is doing versus the rest of your team. Scott Mautz (36:01): Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's where it value is unlocked. Nancy Ozawa (36:05): So we've covered a lot of different areas. Can you kind of box this up for the listeners? Can you summarize what are the key points you need to remember to being a good leader? Scott Mautz (36:15): Yeah, I think if you wanna be a good manager from the middle, it's about remembering the fact that you're a middle manager. Don't let you know, uh, kind of the Dilbert cartoons of the world and the way that the office, the television show, the office has downplayed and made fun of the term middle manager and made it seem like it's not a good thing. Don't fall for that. Embrace the power of being a middle manager because by definition you are in the middle, you're at the intersection of the activity and the information flow, and you have tremendous influence up, down, and across the organization if you choose to do it that way and get good at leading in all directions. So remember that, you know, number one, and you know, I really do believe that the need for mental strength and becoming a mentally strong leader is only growing in importance. And we're gonna need to build the fortitude, the confidence, the boldness, you know, goal focus and decision making skillsets into our overall leadership demeanor so that we can be the best leaders we can be. Nancy Ozawa (37:13): That's great. I, I love that. Thank you so much. I really appreciated you discussing these leadership strategies and giving the examples and you've really lived this as well as done the research, so you really have got some really great tips for everyone. Scott Mautz (37:27): You bet. My pleasure. Nancy Ozawa (37:29): If our listeners want to connect with you or they've got questions, how do they get in touch with you? Scott Mautz (37:34): Yeah, you bet. You can go to scott mountz.com, S-C-O-T-T-M-A-U-T z.com and you can find out about the trainings I give, the workshops I give, um, all the keynotes I do. If you want to check out leading from the middle of the book. Awesome. If you wanna check out the Mentally Strong Leader, the my newest book, that would be great. And in fact, for all your listeners, if you go to scott mos.com/mentally strong gift, you can download a 60 page free PF that gives you a mental strength, self-assessment so that you could start to determine how mentally strong am I right now and what do I need to work on so they can find that at scott melts.com/mentally strong gift. Nancy Ozawa (38:14): Oh, perfect. Thank you so much for that. I will download it myself and have my team doing that. Thank you for joining us, Scott. I think we've all learned a lot and I know our listeners are gonna enjoy listening to this podcast as well. Scott Mautz (38:26): Thank you so much, Nancy. Nancy Ozawa (38:29): Thank you listeners for tuning in to another enlightening discussion. If you haven't already, make sure to check out other episodes and also subscribe so you can get an alert when a new episode drops. Also, we're always looking for feedback on what you'd like us to discuss, so if you have something in mind or maybe you wanna be a guest on our podcast, please let us know by emailing us at banking out loud@ppp.com. Thank you and have a great day.